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Davis' Second RebuttalMichael has brought it to my attention, that there where some things in my opening speech I didn’t make clear. I am sorry about that I will try to fix it in this speech. First, let me explain what it is that I am debating more fully. In responding to my definition of the Torah (from my first speech) Michael said “For the purpose of this debate, Torah will refer to the narrow sense of commandments given in the first five books of the bible.” So I want to look at some things in the Torah. I. In Gen.17:7-8 it says, (Vs. 7) And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you. (Vs. 8) And I will give to you and to your offspring after you the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession, and I will be their God. (Here we see God making a covenant with Abraham and his offspring.) II. In Gen. 17:11-14 the Bible says, (Vs. 11) You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you. (Vs. 12) He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised. Every male throughout your generations, whether born in your house or bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring, (Vs. 13) both he who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money, shall surely be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant. (Vs.14) Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant." (So here we see that no Gentile was under this covenant and, if you where not circumcised you had no rights to the blessings of this covenant.) Now with that in mind let’s look at some things. Can Christians today be under this covenant? The answer to this is no and, the reasons are as follows. I. From these passages we see that the covenant (Torah) was only for those who are circumcised and the offspring of Abraham (Jews only). 1. Question for Michael: What are the requirements of the Torah/Old Covenant? a) Be Circumcised b) Be the offspring of Abraham c) Both a and b II. Now that we know the requirements for the Torah/Old Covenant are let’s see why no one today can be under this law. In 70 A.D. the Romans marched on Jerusalem and destroyed the city, everything, and every one in it. All documents of the true Jews (offspring of Abraham) where destroyed. (I challenge Michael or any one at the church he labors at to prove by righting that they are true descendents of Abraham. If there is a person who can prove it he can be bound by the old covenant.) III. Now with all that in mind let’s look at some other thing Michael needs to deal with. A. Is it sin to keep the old law? No but, you must meet the requirements of it. a) True descendent of Abraham b) Must be circumcised B. Is it sin to keep it? No but, if you don’t meet the requirements and, still try to keep the old law Christ is of no effect on to you. IV. With all this in mind let’s now look at Gal5:2-4 A. Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. B. I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. C. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. In this passage here are people trying to bind parts of the Torah (circumcision Gen.17:11-14) on christens of the new covenant (just like Michael) and, if we try to do that Christ is of no effect unto you (see chart in speech one that Michael still has yet to deal with). Old Covenant 1. Was between Abraham and God. 2. Was for direct descendants of Abraham 3. Could not save anyone 4. Was instituted by Moses New Covenant 1. Is for Jews and Gentiles 2. Is between Christians and God 3. Can save anyone 4. Was instituted by Jesus Michael said:” The weakness is not in the Torah.” If this is true than why can’t we be saved by the Torah? Now it is true the Torah is not weak but, it isn’t for us today. V. Now the next thing I want to talk about is a passage I brought up in my second speech and that is Rom.7:1-5. ( first want to say that I am very sorry
to Michael, when I brought this passage up I asked Michael what kind of fruits
he was baring. After going back and looking at it I realized it made it look
as if I was attacking Michael himself. Michael has brought it to my attention.
I want to apologize to Michael and the readers. Now let’s go back and look at
the passage. (Vs. 1) Or do you not know, brothers--for I am speaking to those who know the law-that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? (Vs. 2) For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage. (Vs. 3) Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another an while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress. (Vs. 4) Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. (Vs. 5) For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. Question for Michael: What does it mean by ”so that you may belong to another?” Michael is still trying to get around my parallel. Before 1775 the thirteen colonies of the United States were under the law of Britain’s, but from 1775-1783 there was bloodshed and after the war we where no longer under the British law, but under the law of the Untied States. Now are there things from the British law that was put into the United States’ law? Yes, but does that make it the British law? No and, I can’t say that we are under the British law because we where before 1775. Same with the Bible, God enforced a Law for man called the Old Law or Old Testament, but then there was bloodshed (by Jesus Christ) and then by that bloodshed, God put us under the New Law/Testament. Now are there things from the Old Law that are put into the New Law? Yes, but does that make it the Old Law? No and I cannot say we are under the Old Law because people before Christ’s death were. Now let’s look at some more passages that Michael needs to deal with. Gal.3:10. For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them." This passage will be a noose around
Michael’s neck for the rest of this debate because after 70 A.D. no one could
keep the law perfectly. Michael doesn’t even keep all the Torah for he doesn’t
bind circumcision or animal scarifies. Therefore the Torah is a curse to Michael
and all who follow him. Hebrews 10:9 9: then he added, "Lo, I have come
to do thy will." He abolishes the first in order to establish the second. (RSV) I think Michael will agree with me that this passage is talking about the laws or testaments. First Law= the old law/testament Second Law = the new law/testament Michael still has not dealt with, In Hebrews 10:9 the Greek word is ἀναιρέω which means do away with, remove In Matthew 5:17 the Greek word is
καταλύω
which means destroy, cast aside In closing I want to say again I am truly
sorry about all confusion and I truly hope that this clears it up. I also want
to thank Michael for this debate and hope those who read it learn as much as I
have from it. Thank you, Myles Davis
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